The description of the valley of ashes opens this chapter. literally what is the valley of ashes

I think the introduction of this chapter is used to create a cloudy perception of the events that occurr. The valley of ashes is initially described to be unclear, with men who "move dimly... (and) stir up an impenetrable cloud." The powere of these words not only imply that the valley of ashes is a wasteland, but one of unknown happenings. Along with this description, Nick becoms drunk for the second time in his life, which clouds events and leaves the reader hanging as he wakes up in a train station in the morning. I believe that the purpose of this obscurity is meant to relate to the clouded perceptions and beliefs that Tom, Myrtle and the other characters have. Not one character is described to be likeable, except for Mr. Wilson who is getting cheated on. I think that the cloud of ashes could symbolism the burning of values that the characters have, which has lead to shady and immoral lifestyles.

I very much agree with this comment. It's great how Fitzgerald uses parallelism creating this cloudy perception not only with the valley of ashes but also in the end of the chapter when Nick is drunk and is fumbling words and phrases.

The Valley of Ashes is described to be filled with buildings and gardens made from ashes. Along with these structures, the men in the valley “…move dimly and [are] already crumbling through the powdery air” (Fitzgerald 23). The crumbling men have traits that are able to be altered with the people/atmosphere around them, like the air alters the shape of the men. Before Nick’s trip to the city with Tom and Myrtle, he had only been drunk once and “the second time was that afternoon; so everything that happened has a dim, hazy cast over it” (Fitzgerald 29). The people that Nick is around influence his behavior and he alters the way he acts, foreshadowing events that may cause other characters’ behaviors to change as well.

I feel like The Valley of Ashes is given a magical description; it is described "where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke, and, finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (Fitzgerald 23). I feel like with this description and feel, it almost brings upon the chapter in a similar way, as well. It feels magical. When I read it, I felt like it could have almost been dream-like. For example, everyone knows Gatsby, but their perception of them is extremely odd. However, they make him seem to be magical, and mysterious at the same time. When Catherine is talking to Nick, she says "I'm scared of him. I'd hate to have him get anything on me" 32). It is a very weird vibe of Gatsby, and with this, I think the Valley of Ashes foreshadowed the rest of the novel, as well as the perceptions of Gatsby.

I completely agree with you! The feeling of magic and mystery is becoming more prominent in the beginning chapters. This is what Gatsby is all about, there is so many ways that people have described him thus far and there is so much mystery built up about him already. The valley of ashes has the same type of idea. It sounds fictional, same with Gatsby.

I agree with Rachel as well. I feel like Fitzgerald wants the reader to gain a sense of mystery in order to keep the reader guessing. This is the perfect set up because it allows for readers to come up with predictions.

I completely agree with you Rachel, after reading your comment I can understand why people think this. Gatsby is more mysterious because Fitzgerald does not give us much description. It is like he wants us to think what we want about him before we actually meet him.

Just like how nobody knows how he got rich or where he came from. The valley of ashes is a dark, dreaded place, with almost a certain type of mystery that makes it beautiful. I agree and believe that Gatsby may be surrounded by mystery, but once you get inside him, (Going to the second floor of the garage), you find he is very different than what shows

I agree with you Joe that the Valley of Ashes has a certain type of mystery to it. But I also think it is also a symbol of the desolation and moral decay of the time period, made by capitalism like the ashes themselves. They may also represent the poverty of the time.

I agree with you Rachel, and i think a key part of that mystery deals with Gatsby and how he acquired his money. Similar to the hidden immorality under this value of ashes, Gatsby seems to have a hidden vice under all of his wealth and mannerisms. Some say it is from Kaiser Wilhelm, others from bootlegging, and others are unsure. The mystery of Gatsby seems to be a mystery of bad morals, similar to the hidden shame in the valley of ashes,

I can't say that I completely agree with you Rachel. Unless I am interpreting what you are saying wrong, it sounds like you are perceiving the Valley of ashes as a *happy* type of magical place. To me it could be magical but it took on more of a dark tone which can be connected to the rest of the chapter because what Tom does is dark and horrible.

The valley of ashes is a wasteland and the "dump" of capitalism. It was "...-a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens; wheres ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys..." (Fitzgerald 23). Even with the desolate image, it seems hidden by the luxurious Eggs. It relates to the rest of the chapter because the valley of ashes represents decline of morality in society. Tom has an affair from someone that lives in this dump, which leads one to believe that the valley is the source of darkness and despair for clouding his morals. Even Nick, an upstanding man is clouded in judgement by going through the valley. He gets drunk for the second time in his life, which one may believe is because of him traveling through the valley of ashes. Even during the party, he is appalled by their character, but doesn't leave. These events hint that the valley may play a role in later events.

Carl, I love that you included that he got drunk. I completely forgot about that detail and it definitely matters! The valley not only house individuals that are morally damaged, but can manipulate strangers morals that enter the valley. That is definitely an idea I need to keep in mind the rest of the novel!

I agree that the valley was used as a symbol for darkness due to the actions that Tom is presenting in the chapter. I think that his actions are proving that he is being unmoral and that they could possibly cause some sort of harm to him later on in the novel.

Your comment is one that interests me Carl. With the mentioning of the valley of the Ashes, and all of the poor morality it represents, I did originally pick up on its ties to Tom's poor judgement and his affair with Myrtle. A comment that you made that I didn't notice at firat though, was the point about Nick getting drunk, under the influence of the valley.

You made an interesting point in your comment, Carl. I completely agreed with you on the idea that Tom's poor morality in dealing with Daisy and Myrtle is reflected by the valley of Ashes. One connection you made that I didn't, however, was the one betweeb Nick and his second experience getting drunk. So far, as we've read, Nick has seemed to be a very straight forward, morally sound character. But this idea allows us to question even him, as just another human being affected by society. Great find. I like your connection.

I think the Valley of Ashes symbolizes the working class and how unhappy and depressed they are. They are unhappy with the city and how poor it is, the railroad workers and the construction of it around them. This sets up the chapter because as we meet 2 new characters, Mr. and Mrs. Wilson, we learn that they live above a store in a poorer part of town. They are not wealthy and are not as successful as Nick or Tom. This leaves them unhappy and depressed with each other and the town around them.

I can see what you are saying Emma. Although I did not look at Fitzgerald's interpretation of the valley of Ashes expressing the working class, after reading your comment I can understand your view of this and can agree with it. I saw the Valley of ashes as symbolizing the sinful affair of Tom and Myrtle and how is starts the chapter off by leading into his dark action of hitting her. But I like your point

Chapter two opens with a description of the valley of ashes, where it lies between the West and East eggs. It is described as men in the valley who "who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air"(Fitzgerald 23). This valley establishes the moral decay in result of the uninhibited gain of the wealth. Fitzgerald's use of imagery creates a picture that the valley of ashes to set in some type of dump in which it is the home to only the poorest of all the land.

I do agree with you in the sense that Fitzgerald described the Valley of Ashes as a place that people are literally crumbling and suffering, however figuratively the description is used to set a dark tone and introduce the idea of artificial truth, especially with Myrtle's husband who believes that "she goes to see her sister in New York" (26). This is partially true, but in reality she is keeping her relationship with Tom a secret. The entire second chapter is filled with different examples in which the truth is partially kept.

I Absolutely agree with you on the fact that the valley is an establishment and symbol of moral decay. Being poor doesn't just have to be with money, it can represent much more such as personal value which there is a lack of in this specific setting.

In my opinion, the Valley of Ashes represents true life beyond the East and West Egg and their beautiful mansions. No one is going to know what will happen in their life. For example, Nick did not expect to find out that Tom has a woman in New York, or to go physically pick her up, as Tom states, “I want you to meet my girl” (Fitzgerald 24). Tom just seems to stir the pot even more, especially since Daisy knows. Nick and Daisy are cousins; Tom and Daisy are married, but Tom is cheating. It was just an unexpected event for a distant cousin to fall into. As for the Valley of Ashes, I feel that it could almost predict that Tom and Daisy’s marriage is dead; it’s over. An ash was once something that was alive, as it was fire, but it eventually dies and turns into ash- nothing but a distant memory in a dumping ground “…that comes to rest” (Fitzgerald 23). Also, the other woman, Myrtle, wants “any right to mention Daisy’s name” (Fitzgerald 37). Tom ends up hitting Myrtle and breaking her nose, only showing how far his temper will be on the whole subject.

Giancarlo I completely agree with you. I never really analyzed it that way I just thought of it as a negative thing and all focused on sins. But you really opened up this chapter in a whole new perspective. It's the sole truth life makes you do things you would have never imagined in the past.

I think the valley of ashes is symbolic in representing darkness and lifeless. Fitzgerald describes it as, "a fanatic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills..." Ashes represent destruction, the result of a fire, and is never seen in a positive light. I think the description foreshadows later destructive events that will take place later on in the chapter.

Good, now hold on to that as you read chapter three. Compare the descriptions of the valley of ashes to Gatsby's party. It is easy to see how different they are, but what are the similarities.

I totally agree with you Alexis. I think that the Valley of Ashes represents a place of darkness and misfortune. Since ashes are the result of something destructive, I think that this sets us up for something destructive to happen later. I dont think that this valley would be called the Valley of Ashes for no apparent reason. I also think that since it is the Valley of Ashes, there is a deeper meaning and some significance to the "ashes."

I think that Fitzgerald used imagery and tone to set the scene for the story. His descriptions indirectly allowed readers to more effectively understand the background information. He also uses symbolism to portray deeper meaning. Like when he described the positioning of the valley of ash as sort of the doorway to New York, it suggested that the rich lifestyle of the 1920s was one of dull personalities and immoral decisions.

I think the introduction to this chapter starts off with the Valley of Ashes to set the stage for how the setting will be like later through out the chapter. "...raising smoke and... and already crumbling through the powdery air... stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight"(23). This quote explains how in the valley, everything is indulged by smoke and everything is either hard to see or everything is confusing. This leads to later in the chapter when Nick is at that party. This was only Nick's second time getting drunk so he is a little confused as to what is actually happening around him as well as he takes everything being indulged in smoke and hard to see literally. While everyone is in the room, it is literally smoky, just like how it is in the Valley of Ashes.

Though that is a good point, I think that there is more to the smoke than just confusion and physical impairment. It also symbolizes the moral confusion and even apathy. People have begun to step away from the morality of the past and, whether it is accidentally or purposely, it is a negative change. The fact that Nick did get drunk again is proof of this. Despite his past experience with alcohol and his generally moral attitude, his views are clouded by moral apathy differed from those around him.

I agree with you Justin because all this smoke that is being described by Fitzgerald is being used as a symbol to symbolize the amount of moral decay that people of this time had adapted to.

As far as symbolism goes, I think that the Valley of Ashes is a symbol for what is going on in the chapter. First off, the description of the valley reflects the situation of Tom and Mrs.Wilson. They are having an affair which is a bad and distasteful thing that no one wants to have happen, yet it still does, just like the Valley. In addition to that, everyone is being forced to see the Valley whenever the trains stop which is similar to how Tom is kind of showing off to everyone that he is having an affair. Nick says "he turned up in popular restaurants with her and, leaving her at a table, sauntered about, chatting with whomsoever he knew" (Fitzgerald 23). I also think that the eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg are representative of Nick in this situation, because he is simply watching over the situation with Tom and Mrs.Wilson as their affairs continue to occur.

The description about how the Valley of Ashes and Tom and Mrs. Wilson is a great connection. The cheating that is going on with Mrs. Wilson behind her husbands back is covered in disrespectful sin that God can see no matter how well she and her lover try to cover it up, much like the ash does. It covers the pretty with what it really is, gross ash of sin. Good connection!

I think the Valley of Ashes is symbolic of the moral and spiritual decay taking place among all of the characters. The descripition, "ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens" (Fitzgerald23), leads us to believe that the area is poor, hopeless, and filled with low-class people. Throughout the chapter you can see the people that live here and have questionable connections here all are seeking a deeper fulfillment. The moral decay the area represents is shown through Tom and Myrtles affair. Myrtle is from the Valley of Ashes and Tom is from East Egg but travels to the Valley to commit his indiscretion.

I think that this is a very good connection to he quote and the way that this is used. Tom can not cheat while in the East Egg because those people are believed to be way more high class than that, and that is why Myrtle has he own appartment with him away from where they both live. I also really like the idea that you present about moral decay and them seeking deeper fullfilment because that its very prevelant through a lot of the characters.

The Valley of ashes is a place of poverty and hopelessness. The people who live in the valley of ashes, such a Myrtle, are desperate to leave the valley. Her longing to leave represents the impossibility of achieving the American Dream. The ashes from the valley are from the richer cities, the West Egg and East Egg. The valley is “[a]bout half way between the West Egg and New York” (Fitzgereld 27). The location shows that the poverty is hidden right in the middle of the two rich cities. This reflects the characters that appear rich and well off but they also have some moral decay within them. These details relate to character development because it foreshadows that we will eventually see the bad parts that are hidden within the characters. The description also relates to the rest of the chapter because Tom cheats on Daisy and Nick becomes drunk for the second time in his life, which mirrors the foggy, unclear description of “men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air (27).

I disagree with what you said about the people who are in between the valley wanting to leave. When they talk about Mr.Wilson, he appears to be very happy with his situation. He runs his own garage, and you can tell that he loves his wife too, after Mrs.Wilson asks for some chairs, the book says "'Oh, sure,' agreed wilson hurriedly" (Fitzgerald 25). I think that what should be taken away from this is that the people who are not rich, but instead they are content with their lives are the ones who are happy. The reason why I think that his wife is unhappy is because she has been tempted by the lust of the rich lifestyle that Tom lives, however, it can be inferred that she is not truly happy after "Tom Buchanan broke her nose with his open hand" (Fitzgerald 36).

I think that some people in the Valley of Ashes may be content with their lives but most of the people are not. The scene is described very darkly with no one seeming very happy. The Valley of Ashes consists of "men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (27). Myrtle is always wanting to leave with Tom even to the point where she has an apartment somewhere else.

I disagree with that, about how Myrtle is unhappy and in pursuit of the American Dream. I do believe that she is unhappy, however her motives are driven by greed. When she is living in the valley with her husband, Wilson, they are not too well off. Upon meeting Wilson, the book states "the only car visible was the dust-covered wreck of a Ford which crouched in a dim corner" (Fitzgerald 24). The fact that he owns a garage and there is only one car around being described as a "wreck of a Ford" shows that they are not doing too well. When Myrtle leaves this to go and be with Tom, the first thing she does is buy a puppy with Tom's money, just because she wanted it. They then go on into the apartment, paid for by Tom, where she then indulges in Tom's liquor. I also think that she does not actually have real feelings for Tom based on her disregard for his emotions when she repeatedly says Daisy's name, provoking Tom to eventually strike her. I also think that she does not actually love Tom because of how she discusses her relationship with her husband, she says "the only crazy I was was when I married him. I knew right away I made a mistake. He borrowed somebody's best suit to get married in" (Fitzgerald 34). Myrtle's reasons for leaving the Valley are driven by greed and the pursuit of wealth. The eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg, which in the situation of the Valley represent the eyes of God, are "dimmed a little by many paintless days under sun and rain" (Fitzgerald 23). This is because of the greed that drives Myrtle, and she would not be happy regardless of where she is living.

Emily, I like and agree with what you said. I do also think that people in the valley of ashes are trying to desperately leave. Myrtle not being able to leave and maybe live out and achieve the American Dream could be the reason why she does the things she does because maybe it is the only way she know how to live. It is because of all the years in the valley. Myrtle has become accustom to it. And I think that when she figures that out that is when she can really start to try and get out of the valley of ashes and live the American Dream.

In chapter 2, Fitzgerald portrays the Valley of Ashes as "a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat" (23). It's a place of ruin and misfortune. This relates to the rest of the chapter because the Valley is also a place of corruption and scandal. The affair between Myrtle and Tom go with the setting of the Valley because it's a place that just gives a bad aura with God-like eyes watching over everyone. Fitzgerald did an excellent job of creating a place that ties into the character developments.

With the description of the Valley of Ashes, it sets the mood of place as distress and gloom. This is a good description of the events that occur in chapter 2 since the reader gets to know a little bit more of Tom's character development. When Mrs, Wilson kept mentioning Daisy's name, "Tom Buchanan broke her nose with his open hand" (Fitzgerald 37). I think Tom did this because he still have his emotion toward Daisy and is using Mrs. Wilson as an excuse. In addition, I think the reason why Nick still talks to Tom after this is that he still believe in the hope of humanity that Tom can change throughout the story.

I think that's one of the main reasons Tom is still married to Daisy. He still has feelings for her and can't let go of his trophy wife. Just like his lie about Daisy, "She's a Catholic, and they don't believe in divorce" (Fitzgerald 33). If he didn't still love her he would have already left Daisy for Myrtle. Also, Myrtle says she made a mistake in marrying Mr. Wilson, but why hasn't she left him yet? The characters make the mistake of marrying people that don't fit with them and makes them unhappy in life.

The way Fitzgerald begins chapter 2 with his very vivid and very detailed description of the Valley of Ashes brings out a sort of mood of gloom but also disorients the reader and characters of what lays deeper. This description leads the rest of the chapter in a very detailed and some what jumbled mess but full with so much information. The mistress and Tom and Nick being dragged along for the ride. The party thrown in the apartment is also very detailed in that it creates almost a disorientation of what actually is going on even deeper within the characters. Another major symbol and detail added within the beginning of this chapter is that "the eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg" (Fitzgerald 23). This symbol represents God within the novel and how society removes God from their lives or almost forgets that God is watching all of their mistakes which leads to the party again later on. Both Myrtle and Tom know what they are doing but one, Tom, is almost upset with himself or reluctant to admit that he has never really loved Myrtle which shows that Tom is almost scared to admit he was wrong to wrong Daisy. Which is almost him feeling God's pressure for him to do what is right.

I agree with you on the idea that the separation from God can be seen in their lifestyle. I think that one of the best places to see this is Tom and Myrtle's relationship. The two characters are both having an affair, but their actions over the course of the chapter lead the reader to question whether it is really based on love or if they are actually using each other. In Tom's case, he may be using Myrtle in order to feel more powerful and confident. Tom misses his "glory days" that he had in college, with football season, his high status, and all the beautiful women. In the beginning of the novel, Nick even says that he "felt Tom would drift forever seeking . . .the dramatic turbulence of some irrecoverable football game"(Fitzgerald 6), so he may be using Myrtle to get that feeling back. In Myrtle's case, I believe that she is using Tom in order to live the life of a wealthy woman. This can be seen in all the times she spontaneously spends Tom's money in fashions that only the wealthy would be able to do (buying the perfume in the train station and the dog from a man in the street ). It can also be seen in the party, as Myrtle changes her clothes several times in order to impress her guests: clothes that were, most likely, bought for her by Tom. Myrtle is trying to live the life of a wealthy woman, the life that she feels she has been cheated out of. Therefore their relationship is not based on love but on lust and selfish desire, which makes it even more immoral.

I believe that Fitzgerald begins chapter two with a very strong description of the Valley of Ashes. This complex description emphasizes the structure of what the Valley of Ashes represents. I think it represents the fading of the characters' true personalities. The valley has "hills and grotesque gardens; where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke and, finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (Fitzgerald 23). In my opinion, the powdery air stands for the the bad decisions that the characters make. The powdery air is ruining the city, just like it can be a symbol of how the characters are infecting their lives with lies and distortions. The eyes on the billboard signify how the morals and values of the characters' are deteriorating to a waste. The affair Tom has with Myrtle is presented in this chapter, adding yet just another alteration in Tom's life. Daisy knows about the affair but just doesn't seem to feel like she should confront Tom. In a way, the ash and powdery air signifies the grotesque actions Tom takes to cheat on Daisy, only causing problems. I also think the the ashes and dump land represents the changes in the American Dream, shifting it towards something fragile and hopeless. In a way you could say its the American Dream watching its self or its dreams crumble and disintegrate.

Corruption is without a doubt evident in the "Valley of Ashes". Although, have you considered a much more elaborate analysis of how this City became so lifeless. Tom resorted to an affair, when affair comes to mind we think excitement, life, and spirtit. The city doesn't display any features of life. If Tom is unsatisfied with his current life, why didn't he select a mitress from a city that thrives with "life"? I would think this type of area would only increase his depressionate state as it prominetly signifys death. "with a transcendent effort, of ash-grey men, who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air."My interpretation is that Fitzgerald isn't just associating the valley to be the symbol of the death of the "Amercan Dream", I believe his intentions were on something more specfic, rather than the broad lifestyle of the American Public. For example, ash-grey men, perhaps this description isn't of the living at all. Ashes can be associated with creamation (death), its a tradition to spread the ashes of loved ones thoughrout many of the place they inhabited, and with the description of how the ashes cover the entire city, I just can't help but wonder.

"move dimly through the crumbly powdery air" the dim lifeless movents could very well be the roaming spirits of the deceased. Spirits roaming the city, lost, guided by a desolate heart. Trapped, not just because they coudn't live the "American Dream", but rather because their spirits are bounded to this place, that once must have flourished with life.

I see what you mean and agree with most of it. The relation to the American Dream is intended to connect in a way to the land and the characters. Cheating, loss of moral values, and lies are not part of what the American Dream is, thus fading the characters' values. I see the crumbling men as the characters faded morals and shift in the dream, but I do see how you think it could just be it's death.

Fitzgerald describes the area in between the East and West Eggs in order to describe what he thinks God must see when he sees the sins that the characters that have been introduced have been committing. The eyes in the description of the eyes that are above the ash and smog represent the eyes of God. “he eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg are blue and gigantic — their irises are one yard high. They look out of no face, but, instead, from a pair of enormous yellow spectacles which pass over a nonexistent nose.” (Fitzgerald 9)The eyes are used as a reminder to the reader that despite all of the sin that the characters have been committing, God has watched all of them. This sets up the rest of the book because it remains in the readers mind for the rest of the novel.

I see where you could get the idea that this giant face might be the face of God, however, I also believe that this face could be one of society's. Later on in the book Jordan says "I like large parties. They're so intimate. At small parties there isn't any privacy"(Fitzgerald 42). In the small sad town there are so few people that everyone can see each other for who they actually are. Meanwhile, at Gatsby's parties there are so many people that there can be lies and no one cares nor notices. I believe that something bad may happen in the city of Ashes later and since it's a small town, more of society's eyes will be upon them and therefore this bad event will be more noticeable.

The descrition of the "Valley of Ashes" contains vast amounts of imagery. Fiztgeralds redundant use of "grey cars, ashes,etc...provide the reader with this dark and lifeless image of the city. Fitzgerald associate this city as the home of Tom's Mistress, the question that arose to me why would Tom, such a highly succesful man that loves to display his fortunes to his peers, select a woman from such a dull and lifeless place. From the inference of the eyes on the billboard being the eyes of God, along with the foul river beside the town,"The valley of ashes is bounded on one side by a small foul river" perhaps Fitzgerald is making biblical reference with the river to Hell? The ashes, a direct result of fire, although normally we would just assume it's the cause of industrialization and factories, however again Hell,fire,death (creamation),ashes? Connections possibly?

Fitzgerald uses great vivid imagery in the text to begin Chapter 2. The description helps allude to events that will happen further on in the chapter and the personalities of some of the characters. In the passage Fitzgerald writes, "...and immediately the ash-gray men swarm up with the leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight." (Fitzgerald 23). According to this quote a cloud of dust and ash obscure what you are able to see. In accordance to this, Tom and Myrtle are very open about their affair and their lack of interest towards their actual spouses. In the chapter they invite many of their friends and neighbors to Myrtle's apartment and openly act as a couple. Myrtle's sister, Catherine, even goes as far as saying that they should be an official couple and divorce their spouses. It only seems as Nick senses that what is going is wrong and not acceptable (even though he is too drunk later on in the Chapter to note this). Society, however, seems to almost accept or be okay with the fact that these two are together and cheating on the people that they married. Also this quote can allude to the fact that George Wilson is too blind by the trust in his friend Tom and the girl that he loves to realize that both these people have been having an affair for many years behind his back. He can't seem to see through this "cloud of dust" whereas, interestingly, Daisy can.

I love how you phrased the ending of your post by pointing out how George is unable to see through the "cloud of dust", but Daisy can. George is viewed as dumb by Tom because he believes his wife actually goes to see her sister in New York all the time and that she genuinely loves him, showing his trust in their relationship. Tom though, feels it is absurd that George does not sense an affair because Daisy was able to figure it out. The "cloud of dust" ultimately acts as almost a source of denial, preventing from seeing the truth/facing reality of the loss of moral values in some of the characters.

I agree with you both on how the "cloud of dust" is blinding George. Amanna, I really like how you relate the dust to your perspective and the way you picture the relationship between Tom and Myrtle. They truly are open about the relationship while at the same time losing their moral values. The loss of the moral values is like "men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (Fitzgerald 23). The loss of moral values can connect to how the characters may be slowly crumbling inside.

The valley of ashes and its description, foreshadows the series of events that occur in the second chapter. The valley of ashes, " a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens..." The valley of ashes represents poverty and decay, and shows the dark side that lies between the two eggs. When ash is present, a persons sight can be misconceiving, their vision is blurred. The fact that Nick got drunk for the second time in his life shows the blurriness of this chapter and maybe the events that follow. I think that underneath the glamour and beauty of the east and west eggs, lies its own valley of ashes that will cause much of the problems in he novel.

Angel, I really like your perspective regarding the valley of ashes. I like how you stated that the ashes represent the problems that will further arise. I agree that although on the outside both eggs display a luxirious and glamorous lifestyle, behind that is cloud obscuring the problems they actually have to the public. And only the eyes of God "brood on over the solemn dumping ground" (Fitzgerald 24) and know the real internal problems.

Fitzgerald opens the second chapter with a significant description of the Valley of Ashes, "...a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat...where ashes take the forms of houses...with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (Fitzgerald 23). Ashes are the usual representation of the remainders of something burned; in this case what is being burned in the town is the moral values of the citizens that continue to grow in size. The corrupting actions of the citizens add to the "powdery air" that veils the once important values of morals and faith that the citizens used to have. This is suggested with the mention of the billboard that has eyes looking down upon the deteriorating town, but is unseen by the citizens. Those eyes coming from the billboard symbolize God, who is all-seeing and a symbol of faith, however based on the actions committed by the citizens it is clear that billboard/the idea of God himself is hidden by the clouds of ash/sins since their faith and morality is no longer apparent in their life decisions. The affair between Tom and Myrtle is a strong supporter of this idea because they both are married but choose to seek each other out for a more meaningful relationship, going against their once important vows to their spouses, showing the loss of faith and growth of immorality. Nick witnesses Tom's affair in person and is not a supporter of it and wants to remove himself from its presence. He points out to readers that "...over the city our line of yellow windows must have contributed their share of human secrecy to the casual watcher in the darkening streets, and i was him too, looking up and wondering" (Fitzgerald 35). This further supports the idea that the actions of the town's citizens are not going unnoticed, but are being acknowledged by God (the casual watcher) as their morals continue to corrupt. Nick still views his value of morals and faith as an important part of his life and does not support the decisions the people make in the town and ponders at this described scenery and wonders/worries what society has turned into and what it will become.

Fitzgerald uses the 'valley of ashes' to symbolize ask that is wrong with the world since it is described as a "fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills... where ashes take forms of houses and chimneys..." this relates to the tainted relationship between Tom and Myrtle. I think that the darkness of the ashes also symbolizes the chemistry in the relationship, it's purely lust. And the darkness could also resemble the dark nature that Tom has, with being so rude to Mr. Wilson and hitting Myrtle.

I agree with you Amber that yes I do believe that Fitzgerald does use the valley of ashes as a symbol of the world and what it has become and to also reach soon when the stock market will crash in the later years. I also believe that you are right that the mood and the gloominess this description gives does give a little insight of the spiraling relationship of Tom and Myrtle as both pure lust and possibly something dark later on.

Amber, I agree with you about the connection between Tom and Myrtle and the Valley of Ashes. I think the darkness really reflects the relationship they are having. I think that it is very symbolic how Tom has to stop at the Valley of Ashes to go cheat on Daisy. However, I also think that the valley also reflects the darkness in everyone even the people who appear good. The Valley if Ashes is located between two nice cities, which could symbolize how there is immorality in everyone.

I agree with your ideas how the darkness of the ashes symbolize the mood in the relationship between Tom and Myrtle. Also, I think the darkness around the valley from the ashes symbolize the work of sin that is produced in the valley and everything is being seen because, "The eyes of Doctor T.J Eckleburg are blue and gigantic-their retinas are one yard high"(Fitzgerald 23). In a religious way, this poster board can symbolize God as seeing everything that happen in the valley.

In the valley of ashes at the beginning of the chapter, the people live physically dirty lies as a result of the ash from the factories that are nearby. Fitzgerald uses this description as a commentary on the fall of morality and the decreasing influence of religion on modern culture. The characters then travel to New York, which is a huge contrast in cleanliness as well as an implied brightness of life. When the party starts and everyone get drunk, they all seem to be having a good time. But then, Tom gets angry with Myrtle and ends up breaking her nose. This can connect to the valley of ashes because, in that setting, the characters lead physically dirty lives. But, in the example of Myrtle's husband, they seem to be relatively innocent people. Once in New York, however, the opposite is true. Life there may look pretty and all, but on the inside, everything is just as corrupt as in the valley of ashes.

I completely agree that the valley of ashes is symbolic for the people within it. I first believed this when the valley of ashes was described as a "fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens" (Fitzgerald 23). The valley has the opportunity to be a lovely place, full of flowers and beautiful nature, but due to the advancements in society, it has been altered into something truly ugly. Compare this to people; as society has grown and adjusted, the true beauty behind the American experience is destroyed.

The valley of ashes lies halfway between West Egg and East Egg. The railroad and regular road "shrink away" from this "fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens" (Fitzgerald 23). The valley of ashes represents the moral decay that results from the endless pursuit of wealth by people such as those from West and East Egg. From the description, I infer that the moral decay is abundant (from being compared to growing like wheat) and that the people are ashamed of their moral decay and don't want to address it (because of the fact that the roads shrink away from it). The valley of ashes relates to the rest of the chapter because as the chapter progresses, readers get to see the moral decay first hand. For example, Nick states that " it was because of this [the valley of ashes] that I first met Tom Buchanan's mistress" (24). Myrtle comes from the valley of ashes and shows Tom's moral decay: the fact that he cheats on his wife with no regret and even hits Myrtle later on in the chapter. Overall, the valley of ashes represents the moral decay that continues to develop in the West and East Egg characters as the novel progresses.

I think the valley of ashes is a representation of dark side of society. When Fitzgerald describes the valley of ashes, he states, “Occasionally a line of gray cars crawls along an invisible track, gives out a ghastly creak, and comes to rest, and immediately the ash-gray men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight” (Fitzgerald 23). This part of the description of the valley of ashes is directly referring to the affair Tom is having with Myrtle. The cloud that they use represents the infidelity of Tom because he uses the city to hide himself and Myrtle since there are thousands of people doing the same as he is and nobody would notice. The introduction of the valley of ashes sets up the corruption that Nick will uncover in the novel.

I think Fitzgerald uses the valley of ashes not only as a symbol to the whole story, but to portray the series of depressing events that are to occur in the rest of the chapter. "...so as to sink away from a desolate area of land."(Fitzgerald 23). This quote is symbolizing how even the road shrinks away from this dark area; and as Nick is analyzing the scene, the more suspicious he feels about what is about to happen. After the valley of ashes description, Tom says to Nick "I want you to meet my girl"(Fitzgerald 24). This confirms that the valley of ashes portrayed a depressing chapter of events.

I agree with you, Monica. Fitzgerald describes the Valley of Ashes as, “Occasionally a line of gray cars crawls along an invisible track, gives out a ghastly creak, and comes to rest, and immediately the ash-gray men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight” (Fitzgerald 23). I feel that this describes the current status of Daisy and Tom’s marriage, the reader pictures fog and ash making it difficult to see, just apply this image to the future of their marriage. This could only be the beginning of multiple depressing events that can occur.

I agree with both of you on this. I think that the Valley of Ashes is a place of mystery. Giancarlo, you said that "the reader pictures fog and ash making it difficult to see...". This I find is true, however, if you read further down the page it states that "above the gray land and the spasms of bleak dust which drift endlessly over it, you perceive, after a moment, the eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg" (Fitzgerald 23). This I find adds into the mystery, but helps with the ability to actually see.

Fitsgerald's description of the Valley of Ashes provides much more than just details. His word choice and his use of imagery provides a scene of the story so well that it's almost like a scene of a movie. The part of the description of the valley of ashes that caught my eye the most was his statement, "Occasionally a line of gray cars crawls along an invisible track, gives out a ghastly creak" (Fitzgerald 23). This description presents the valley of ashes as being very creepy and sinful, which I believe relates to the rest of the chapter due to how the wrong doings of Tom and Myrtle's affair and the way Tom hits Myrtle are all things that we view to be sinful and wrong.

I like how you mentioned that the Valley of Ashes description presents itself as a sinful place. Going off of that, I think it also has a deeper meaning. I believe the Valley is over all symbolic of the spiritual decay thats taking place within many of the characters throughout the novel. Mainly focusing on Tom and Myrtle within this chapter. Since it is about "half way between the West Egg and New York" (Fitzgerald 25), I believe it represents the sin that is present in each location, hidden by wealth. Since the Valley of Ashes has no wealth, the human sins are more evident.

I think that the valley of ashes symbolizes moral decay that is taking place during this time. The way that Fitzgerald refers to the ashes as wheat growing, symbolizes the fact that it is normal in this time to be an immoral person. "This is a valley of ashes- a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills..." (Fitzgerald 23). Also, I think that it represents the social decay that is hidden by the West and East Egg, and how they judge the others based on their social class.

Julia, I agree with your views on how the Valley of Ashes symbolizes the beginning of the decay for morality. This story takes place in a time of happiness before the Great Depression. When Fitzgerald describes the valley to be a place where "ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills" (Fitzgerald 23), he is somehow predicting the depression that will rise to take over America in the coming decade. During the depression, it becomes normal for people to unhappy with their living conditions and the economy, creating a gray haze over the time period, like the ashes cover everything in the book.

I agree with your comment about the moral decay that occurs in the valley. Nick's encounter with the people who live in this desolate area gives him a lapse of judgement and he gets drunk which is unusual for him. The morals that people have in the valley are different than those in the eggs.

The Valley of Ashes represents the vagueness the chapter will hold along with a sense of hopelessness. The line "Immediately the ash-grey men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud which screens their obscure operations from your sight" sets up the vagueness and makes the reader question character thoughts, such as why Tom will not leave Daisy for Myrtle (Fitzgerald 28). There is no clear reason why Myrtle married her husband, and why Tom is still with Daisy. The Valley of Ashes is also a cover-up, where the description of the smoke is the barrier to "hide" Tom and Myrtle's affair. Nick also comes into play because of how he got drunk for the second time, with the result of being unable to understand what happened in the afternoon and nighttime. The vast imagery Fitzgerald uses is to show how moral corruption is present through the affairs. The Ashes not only represent haziness and uncertainty, but lies, corruption, and a sense of mistrust.

I agree with your idea that The Valley of Ashes can represent a barrier "hiding" Tom and Myrtle's affair. Also, that you mentioned that we as readers aren't given enough information to infer why Tom is still with Daisy. The vagueness, like you said, results to the puzzling question as to why Tom is not only lying to Daisy, but also to Myrtle, claiming that the reason he won't divorce Daisy is because she is catholic, which from Nick's perspective is completely untrue.

The valley of ashes represents the bitterness and moral decay that people of this time had adapted into. The fact that Fitzgerald states that the ashes were like wheat growing shows how moral decay had become a normal thing. Another example that shows that the Valley of ashes represents moral decay was when the description of the billboard was introduced. we could infer that the eyes watching down on everyone could resemble god and how people had forgotten about god due to the increased amount immoral people.

The valley of ashes represents the dark reality that is covered by wealth and glamour. It is an area "where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke, and, finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (Fitzgerald 23). All the pollution from production in the industrial business is dumped here so much that the air is thick in ash. In comparison to Gatsby's grand parties, it displays the poverty other people live in. The people who live here have given up and feel like there is a barrier keeping them in. While on the outside the wealthy people are clean and beautiful, they are morally just as dirty as the poor people who live in the valley. Tom is a prime example of a corrupt rich person; he seems to mock the valley every time he visits.

I like how you compared the people consumed in poverty in the valley of ashes to Gatsby's parties/ the wealthy people of West and East Egg and their morals. Building off your ideas, Fitzgerald describes Mr. Wilson as "a blond, spiritless man, anemic, and faintly handsome" (Fitzgerald 25). Tom taunts Wilson and is having an affair with his wife and has no guilt... showing his lack of morals. Wilson, on the other hand, is handsome and appears to have some decent moral but he lacks money, spirit, and essentially life. Both of these characters, despite how much money they have, are corrupt somehow, whether morally or emotionally/spiritually which is what Fitzgerald wanted to prove with the valley of ashes.

I think that the Valley of Ashes represents darkness and a place of misfortune. Ashes are the result of a fire or something destructive. The ashes could symbolize that something destructive or a series depressing events are going to happen later on in the chapter. The Valley of Ashes could also symbolize the current status of Tom and Daisy's marriage. When there are ashes, there is also fog and debris. Fog and debris creates a difficulty to see, and this image can be applied to the way Tom and Daisy's marriage will turn out. Since the ashes grow like wheat, I also think that this symbolizes that there is always something destructive or unfortunate happening to someone or something in the novel.

Bailey I totally agree with you that the ashes can symbolize all of the terrible events that are happening in their lives. I also think that the ashes are showing that the Great Depression is coming, and that everyone will soon have a very hard time. I also think that Daisy and Tom's marrige will end in a bad way becasue of all of the terrible things that have happened.

I think that Fitzgerald purposely started the chapter off with information about the valley of ashes. It sets the tone for the chapter. After reading about the Valley of ashes, I felt as if anything happy or fun in that chapter would be a false reality. When everyone is drinking and partying this is apparent. More proof of this is when Catherine tells Nick, "Neither of them can stand the person they're married to" (Fitzgerald 22-23). Myrtle and Tom try to get away from their lives and their reality with alcohol and each other and in the end will never be able to get away from their real lives. The group keeps partying and the chapter wraps up just as bad as it began. Tom hits Myrtle and readers again feel similar to the way that they did when reading the description of the valley of ashes.

The main symbolic item that I found within the passage is the billboard of Dr.T.J.Eckleburg. Fitzgerald describes the billboard as being, "above the gray land and the spasms of bleak dust which drift endlessly over it" (Fitzgerald), which likens the billboard to God, who looks over all of the Earth. However the ash that covers the valley also symbolizes a spiritual barrier that separates people from God, allowing immorality to appear. This relates to the rest of the chapter because, over the course of that chapter, a large number of immoral actions take place. In my opinion there are two events which best illustrate this spiritual separation. The first is when Tom goes to Mr.Wilson's garage in order to make plans with Myrtle while her husband was literally 30 feet away. It not only shows Tom's lack of class but also shows Tom's selfishness and complete disregard for the feelings of others. The second event was the party. Not only is it immoral due to all of the irresponsible drinking; it is immoral because everyone at the party knows that both Tom and Myrtle are cheating on their spouses, but nobody cares. They even support the affair and have recommended that the to get married. This lack of morality is a common theme, and is one of the characteristic of modernism (the rejection of the spiritual debasement of the modern world).

I very much agree with you James, especially your point that the ash allows for immorality. Immorality is heavily touched upon in chapter two, an example being Tom and Myrtle's affair and how open it is in the society. I like your connection regarding the billboard and God. It shows an emphasis on the lack of morality derived from society and how people are starting to disregard religion and morals due to having fun and constantly "having fun".

James, I agree with you on the point that the grayness of the valley of ashes is like the earth and Dr. Eckleberg is like God. Reading over it the first time I didn't really make that connection of religion, I thought of it as the foreshadowing of Tom and Myrtle's relationship. I also agree with how you see the immortality of the characters in the chapter.

James I agree with you in the fact that you interpreted the valley of Ashes as the greyness and ashes of the earth and made the connection to god through Dr.Eckleberg. I found it really interesting at the same time i thought how in the world did it connect to the subject to religion,but you made it happen. I agree completely agree with you that the lack of morality is a common theme found in this book.people like Tom start to disregard religion and morals due to constantly "having fun". This is exemplified through Tom's lack of class, selfishness, and inconsiderateness.

The valley of ashes represents all of the lies and corruption that happen in the East and West Egg. The ashes symbolize the covering up of all the sins that are committed. The eyes on the billboard symbolize God when it says, "The eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg are blue and gigantic-their retinas are one yard high. They look out of no face, but, instead, from a pair of enormous yellow spectacles which pass over a non-existent nose" (Fitzgerald 23). The ashes are from the industry's pollution which creates literal ash in the air. However, the East and West Eggs appear to be clean. This ash can be related to all of the corruption that happens later in the chapter in the love affair with Tom and Wilson's wife. On the surface, everything appears normal, however deep down, we can find corruption and lies.

The Valley of Ashes is described as a "fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens; where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke" (23). The valley is a place of despair and is an overall bleak environment. So much so, that the majority of commuters avoid it. Fitzgerald comments on this by saying, "the motor road hastily joins the railroad and runs beside it for a quarter of a mile, so as to shrink away from [the Valley of Ashes]" (23). His comment makes it seem like the common folk that either lives in and/or works in the city tries to stay as far away as possible. It relates to the rest of the chapter because the new characters we meet also seem to be bleak and full of despair. The McKee's do not have anything exciting or hopeful in their life, other than to obsess about his photography. Myrtle Wilson is stuck in a dead end relationship, and the only thing she has in her life is an affair. That says a lot about a person, if an affair is the best thing in their life.

Great point Renick, I think that all events and characters in chapter two are dim and don't have much going for them. By starting with the valley of ashes Fitzgerald lets readers know what type of chapter this is. Possibly, chapter two may be the "valley of ashes" of the story because of the tragic events like Tom hitting Myrtle and meet characters that are "dim" and hate their lives like Myrtle.

Renick, I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think that's what Fitzgerald was trying to imply. I feel that Fitzgerald wasn't necessarily trying to seperate the lifestyles of the city and countryside, but I feel that he was trying to show mystery. The glowing eyes overlooking the clouds of ashes resemble the unknown. Nearly everything about Gatsby is also unknown. I feel that Fitzgerald is trying to say that no matter who you are or where you are, there will always be uncertainties and mystery surrounding many different aspects of life.

I think the Valley of ashes is a symbol for an unhappiness that is a shadow underneath a life of wealth and a glorious lifestyle. In the chapter, Tom is so open about his relationship with his girlfriend, Myrtle, even though Daisy is his wife, and I think he knows that what he is doing is hurting her but continues to go along with it anyway showing that he is unhappy in his relationship with Daisy but loves her too much to leave her. By saying, ""Immediately the ash-grey men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud which screens their obscure operations from your sight" (Fitzgerald 28), I think that Fitzgerald is trying to use the Valley of Ashes as s way to hide his affair with Myrtle from his wife, even though it's not hidden very well since he is so open about it. I also feel as if the ashes are symbolizing the destruction that may occur in Daisy and Tom's marriage.

I think the valley of ashes was an extremely clever symbol that Fitzgerald to use to push the idea of destruction and end of life. Nick and Tom go to see Tom's Myrtle who lives in valley of ashes. It's a shady thing done in a shady place but to make it even more ironic, the billboard with the eyes is like good looking over the dirty could

I agree, the all seeing nature and religious reference of god is contrasting the Sinful act that Tom is doing by having a mistress. Which adds to the all knowing nature of "Doctor Eckleburgs persistent stare"(26) or God. as he is the one who will judge Tom for his actions not NIck.

I also agree with this because Fitzgerald used a dirty, mysterious place to elaborate on the idea of the affair between Tom and Myrtle. The billboard tops it off because it's the "God-like eyes" overlook the city and it's like God is looking over the destruction.

I think the valley of ashes is a symbol for darkness even though the people that live there have everything they want and they live this glorious lifestyle. The Valley is described as "a fanatic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills...". The eyes that sit above on the billboard is a symbol for God, who is watching over every sin that happens which the ash is also a symbol for.

I really like how you referred to the eyes as a symbol for God, because that was a creative and different way to look at it. I also think the quote you chose to use for a description helped prove your point more. Last, the word glorious to describe their lifestyle was a good choice, because that's exactly how it seems.

The description of the Valley of Ashes introduces the chapter by describing a ghostly and dark setting with "ash-grey men swarm up with leaden spades [that] stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight (Fitzgerald 23). The ashes could represent something like a fog that clouds a person's vision or hides some sort of truth. This is especially true throughout the chapter when Fitzgerald introduces new characters/traits. Myrtle is keeping her relationship with Tom a secret from her husband, who is described as "so dumb he doesn't know he's alive" (26). The idea of distorted truth also comes through the magazines displayed in the apartment as well as Myrtle's dialogue when she talks rumors about a woman named Mrs. Eberhardt. The Valley of Ashes is a literal description of secrets, or in some cases rumors, that are used to hide some sort of truth.

The Valley of Ashes a factory district with ash coated buildings,streets and people. A haze rest over the darker part of town and obscures onlookers and the inhabitants of the valley to the activities that occur. The eyes of Dr. T. J. Eckleburg rest over the valley, obscured from the people's view because of the ash. The eyes of the Doctor are those of God, the people cannot see him but he is always there. The valley itself is meant to represent that we have taken this beautiful world and burned it. Human lust and greed has taken innocence of the earth and destroyed it. So, in the first page of chapter two, the reader is left with two symbols, a burnt world, and the eyes of God. Throughout the chapter, the characters express the burnt morals of humans. Tom cheats on his wife, then lies and says he cannot leave her because she is Catholic. The couple treats Myrtle's husband horribly. Myrtle fell for Tom for his money. The crowd at the party is not in the Valley but they are burnt, nothing is left within them. They are shells of a human being, inflated by high status or the need for attention.

The Valley of Ashes is a terrible place where “ashes grow like wheat” (22). Wheat is food and must be plentiful to provide a consumer with essential nutrients. If ashes are as common as food, then as a reader, one can imagine how poor these people are. Then come the eyes of Doctor Eckleburg that have been “dimmed a little by many paintless days” (22). These eyes from a giant billboard see everything in the wasteland. The “paintless” days means that it is not cared for as well as it should be. The ashes from the people’s acts are blinding the eye doctor who is supposed to help people see better. The eyes can be related back to Nick Carraway and the rest of chapter two because he also sees everything. Nick is feeling blinded by the wrong doings of Tom Buchanan with his other woman while being married to his cousin, Daisy, but like Doctor Eckleburg, Nick can only be an observer of such actions.

The beginning of chapter 2 and the details and meaning of the Valley of Ashes opens and foreshadows the events of chapter 2. The Valley of Ashes is described as “ a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges”(27) and where “the ash-grey men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud which screens their obscure operations from your sight”(27). This quote could mean that the people of this society are blindly walking around throughout their lives, kicking up more ash into the lives of the people around them. The ash could a symbol for the sins of the society, that continue to rain down due to the rich and their actions in their lives. Much of chapter 2 is filled with sinful actions, such as Tom’s cheating and Tom’s physical assault on Myrtle. While both of these actions stem from Tom, much of the environment in the book adds to the sinfulness such as Mrs. McKee’s “pride that her husband had photographed her a hundred and twenty-seven times since they had married” and Myrtle’s speech disrespecting her husband fills the environment with pride and egotism. The valley of ash is a symbol for the lives of the people in the east egg and west egg and the people and the people in the east egg and the west egg commonly spread sin that goes on to pollute the community with sin.

Chapter two begins with Nick’s description of the valley of ashes. Nick describes it as a “desolate area of land… where ashes take the forms of houses” (Fitzgerald 20). Towards the end of the chapter, Nick, Tom, and Mrs. Wilson, Tom’s mistress, are in Tom and Mrs. Wilson’s apartment. Nick ends up being drunk and the chapter concludes with Nick “lying half asleep in the cold lower level of the Pennsylvania Station” (Fitzgerald 32). In my opinion, the valley of ashes links together the obscurity of which the chapter begins and concludes.

The valley of ashes between the West and East Egg is a depressing image Fitzgerald presents. "Ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke and, finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling throught he powdery air" (23). I think that this image represents the social decay of the poor. Ashes are left from materials that once were full of life but were burned down and left in tiny pieces. The valley represent the struggles of being poor. Outside the valley sits beautiful houses and wealthy people which is why I think the valley represents social decay.

Scott, I like how you classified the Valley of Ashes as symbol of social decay. I completely agree, especially with the strong image of poverty that Fitzgerald portrays. On top of social decay, do you think that there are instances in this chapter where moral decay is represented as well?

I do agree that the ashes could represent a struggle of some kind. However, I disagree with what you said about the ashes representing a struggle of the poor. I say this because if it did then Fitzgerald wouldn't have included the giant eyes that see all of the ashes. Instead, I believe that Fitzgerald is trying to portray that the ashes represent the sins of humanity during that time period.

I agree with you Scott, and I also think Fitzgerald puts the description of the valley of ashes in the book, not only to show the superiority of the two eggs, but to also show you how the world really looks. Looking at the two eggs, east and west egg, the descriptions we get about the two eggs are petty general, and all the descriptions are mainly visual details. I believe the valley ashes show how the world really looks like. All the ashes, dust clouds and what not, are used to show how obscured everyone's vision is towards society. That the real things that are happening in society everyone over looks and cannot see clearly, like how unclear it would be to look through a cloud.

Yousuf, I really agree with the idea of Fitzgerald using the valley of ashes as a contrast to both of the eggs and i also agree with the fact that it is made to depict how dark and gloomy the valley really is. To add to your idea, with how dark, mysterious, and what seems like poverty though out the valley, it sets up the rest of the chapter perfectly because of the dark mischievous events that occur. For example Nick getting drunk for the second time of his life and the fact that throughout the whole chapter Tom is cheating on his wife.

The 'valley of ashes' that Nick introduces at the start of the second chapter is decribed in such a way, that a reader really has to stop and think about all of the details that make it up. Depicted as a "fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens," the valley at first creates a sort of conflicting image (23). Words like "fantastic", "grow" and "wheat" usually translate to good things, associating with life and plenty. But when a strong and ovbiously harsh word like "grotesque" is thrown in to the mix, it's enough to combat the previous details, and cause the readers to question the real meaning behind them. Nick's following lines lack any form of positive wording in regards to the valley of ashes, and leave the ones from earlier sounding rather sarcastic and critically inquistive, like we are quickly becoming accustomed to with Nick.

Fitzgerald's description of the Vally of Ashes introduces the less glamorous side of living that is outside of the Long Island area. He describes the Valley of Ashes as "a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat..." (Fitzgerald 23). This description creates an image of poverty and hopelessness. However, it symbolizes the rapid decline of morality within the people of the west and east eggs. An example of this was how Tom talked down to George Wilson because their large differences in social status. Tom felt that he could address George in any manner that he pleased due to his large amount of wealth. This symbolizes moral decay, because as the ashes continue to grow, the amount of arrogant and self-centered people, such as Tom, continues to increase as well.

Fitzgerald describes the Valley of Ashes as a "desolate area of land...where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and... men who move dimly... [and] an impenetrable cloud... obscure[s] operations from [their] sight" (Fitzgerald 23). Compared to the other previous two chapters which boasts of the great wealth and beautiful landscapes of the West and East Egg, this is a land of despair and is something less than glamorous. It creates a sense of misery and sorrow that could possibly foreshadow what happens later on in the book. There is also the symbol of the enormous blue eyes that are featured on the billboard that overlooks the city. These eyes look above the smog and dust and illustrates a Big Brother or godly figure looking over everyone in the Valley.

I agree with you, Paula, on the description of the Valley of Ashes, foreshadowing events that will occur in the near future. I also liked how you mentioned the big eyes that looked over the city. I think another foreshadow would be the description of the eyes, like how they "..dimmed a little by many paintless days under sun and rain, brood on over the solemn dumping ground (Fitzgerald 24). I think it depicts how society has slowly deteriorated over the years. Fitzgerald use of “paintless days” resemble how people have left old traditions entirely and started to not care about anything, but enjoying life the way they want. What do you think the purpose of Fitzgerald was for the depiction of the big eyes?

Right off the bat Fitzgerald uses the valley ashes to portray dark mood to begin the chapter. The description of how the valley of ashes is a place, "where ashes take the form of houses and chimneys and and rising smoke and, finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" sets up the the rest of the chapter in a good way in my opinion because of how everything that is occurring almost shows a darker side of the characters. For example, the whole chapter Tom is with his with the person he is cheating on his wife with, also Nick gets drunk for only the second time in his life witch eventually leads him to wake up in a station waiting for transportation, and no real recollection how he got there. The description at the beginning set up for the darker events and experiences that were going to happen though out the chapter.

Stefan, I agree with your opinion on what the valley of ashes portrays. I believe that the ashes represent social decay of the characters. I like how you provided examples of how the characters are turning dark. The valley of ashes at the beginning sets a tone for the reader and foreshadows what is to come for the characters.

It's also important to note that the valley of ash is located between the two eggs. The valley of ashes may be dark and grim but that's only compared to the two gleaming areas that surround it. I personally took it as the regret and guild felt by the rich people in the surrounding area for the way they throw money around.

In the beginning of the chapter when the valley of ashes is being described, there is a sense of lifelessness. It appears to be desolate and lonely, "Occasionally a line of gray cars crawl along an invisible track," (Fitzgerald chapter 2). This reminds me of all the characters that are introduced in the following pages. Although they paint this picture of being fun and spontaneous people, they have are really just putting on a show. They are looking for things that give them feelings because they are empty. This is a time period of decay in morals and the economy too. This dark valley is easily connected to the struggles that society is facing to stay together.

I thinks that the opening of the chapter is a great way to compare how Toms actions really are in comparison to the "farm where ashes grow like wheat", because the way I see it we can take this in two ways probably more. But the two I see are that the ever growing ashes can be compared to the lies that Tom has made and how it covers his life and that of Mrs.Wilsons, the other is that the valley of ashes sets the scene of hard work, with little representation to show that work. It's a thought I haven't been able to relate yet but I feel like it has to do with a type of moral. Fitzgerald adds many random details to fill the chapter of how long Tom and Mrs.Wilson have been this way and how the others see it. I know my thoughts are anything but clear I just can't find the right words to describe how I think the details affect the chapter.

The Valley of ashes is described as a place of darkness,hopelessness and a place of pure destruction. The Valley is a place where “ashes grow like wheat” (Fitzgerald Chapter 2). The ashes represent the industries which produce goods and materials which satisfy peoples' needs. Myrtle, who is Tom's not so secret girlfriend lives here. In a way I feel as if the Author is giving a hint that Mrytle is nothing but a materialistic satisfaction for Tom to keep entertained.

The valley of ashes symbolizes the despair and bleakness of the human spirit, contrasting with the exquisiteness of the West Egg. Ash can make even the whitest clothes dirty, just as the underlining sins and moral injustices perpetrated by the rich take away from their supposed superiority. The puppy that Tom gives Myrtle also symbolizes the differences between perception and reality. Similar to the puppies innocence, Myrtle believes Tom is the perfect soul mate, when in reality he is abusive, controlling, and is lying to her. Her idealistic view of Tom comes crashing down when he, "broke her nose with his open hand" (41).

I agree with how the puppy is a symbol to the relationship between Myrtle and Tom. However I think another point that could be made based of your conclusion on how the dirt is like underlining sins is how we can see this ash on the outside of the town but we cannot see it on the outside of Tom who to me is probably the dirtiest person in the book. Maybe the town is a symbol of toms mind and body. His sin like the ash will never be fully gone and I think your dead on with how the valley of ashes symbolizes in all the despair and bleakness of the human spirit.

I believe the Valley of Ashes is the sense of reality within the book. While all the characters are caught up in their spiraling lives along with the spiraling of events within the book itself. Ironically, the Valley of Ashes is in-between the West and East Egg, two places where the people live in their dreams and dramas. In the book itself, readers are indulged by parties where the people "...came and went without having met Gatsby at all, [and they] came for the party with a simplicity of heart that was its own ticket of admission." (Fitzgeral 41) The parties were so huge and wild, with full orchestras and people coming from all across New York. It's described to be dream-like. Whereas, in relation to the Valley of Ashes, the valley is not. The description has a hint of dirtiness too the valley, "...a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat...where ashes take the forms of houses...crumbling through the powdery air." (Fitzgerald 23) The words ashes, crumbling, and powdery air, indicate the dirtiness and unwelcoming feeling. In real life, people feel an unwelcoming whenever reality hits them and when they realize that their fantasies are not always real. The point I am trying to get at is, whenever the characters of the book are in the Valley of Ashes, their lives do not hold a fantasy-like feeling. In the readers view, they get a dose of reality because they are no longer reading about glamorized parties or people, they are witnessing things for how they are.

Great description about the changes in lifestyle in relation to the change in setting. I do notice the how valley of ashes is in between the East and West Egg signifying that when dreams become unreal, people default to the middle and experience an unwelcoming feeling. This idea also makes me refer back to Conrad's entry question of "how did Fitzgerald predict the Great Depression so accurately"? Ultimately, he did based on his characteristics of the valley of ashes. Just something to think about.

I think the description of the Valley of Ashes is a direct comparison to the way people live in that area. Nick gets drunk for the second time in his life at a party he attends with Myrtle and Tom in the valley. This shows that Nick was easily influenced by the people around him just as the men in the valley of ashes was described when the novel states, "who move dimly and are already crumbling through the powdery air." (Fitzgerald 23).

I agree with your point about the influence of the people who reside in the valley. The people that live there are different than those of the people in the East or West eggs because of their surroundings. The area that someone is in affects their personality immensely.

At the beginning of chapter 2, Fitzgerald paints a picture of a valley of ashes. This scene, is eerily reminiscent of Chernobyl, Ukraine (the site of a nuclear disaster in 1986). That being said, all of the details given make it like a barren wasteland with one prominent feature "above the gray land and the spasms of bleak dust which lift endlessly over it... the eyes of Dr TJ Eckleburg are blue and gigantic-their retinas are one yard high. They look out if no face, but, instead, from a pair of enormous yellow spectacles which pass over a non-existent nose" (Fitzgerald 23). Later in the chapter, Tom introduces Nick to his girlfriend, Mrs. Wilson. The billboard is there to serve the purpose of a reminder to readers of one of Ten Commandments, not to covet a neighbor's wife (I think that's the correct wording). Dr. Eckleburg could be considered as a figure who sees all, and keeps watch over the valley.

The Valley of Ashes is described to be a very dark place where everything is very cloudy and unclear. This refers to structures which are all covered in ashes creating a very depressing atmosphere. Fitzgerald also talks about the men in the valley and how they “…move dimly and [are] already crumbling through the powdery air” (23). The "crumbling" men are portrayed here as not very strong, they are able to be blown with the wind and don't really stand for much. Until Nick goes to the city with Tom and Myrtle, he had only been drunk once, “the second time was that afternoon; so everything that happened has a dim, hazy cast over it” (29). Just like the city and the men, covered with ash, Nick notices some of the same qualities in the city and the people that he surrounds himself with.

I like the idea that Nick is able to question the people around him and make conclusions based of the thing he saw with the Valley of Ashes. In seeing the conditions in which these people live compared to a party Gatsby throws, Nick realizes that society isn't moving in the right direction. Another thing would be him drinking for the second time of his life. The haze created by the alcohol could be compared to the fog (ash) of the valley. He is not clear in his thoughts or decision making just like society when clouded by "fog".

I think the description of the Valley of Ashes is important to set up setting as well as show that some people have secrets to hide. In the description, Fitzgerald writes, "...And immediately the ash-gray men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight"(Fitzgerald 23). With this I feel he is giving way to say that people like Tom will do things and hide it from people. Everyone keeps secrets, and keep things hidden from view.

The Valley of Ashes highly contrasts with the rest of chapter two and the rest of the book. In between the of extravagant parties and wealth of the Eggs, a more realistic society exists. One of the working class, that resembles the pure image of ash. A society covered in dirt and that opposes the idea of where humanity should be heading. Instead of a bountiful land, society and its sins have burnt it to the ground, covering the world with an endless fog of ash. Within the chapter the eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg on the billboard is referenced as they look upon the town (24). This can be related religiously as if God is looking down on society questioning the path it is taking. Just one example of spiritual debasement.

I agree with you very much, I did not really look at how it compared the the first chapter but I think it is great how you pointed it out. I think Fitzgerald is pointing out how even in a really good society there is still bad, the valley of ashes shows that in someone's world there may be riches but in another's there is dirt.

I totally agree with this. I think that the ashes are a sort of symbol of where society should be, and the eggs are kind of sheltered from the real world. All of the egg residents are partying for days on end, while the individuals in the valley of ashes have to deal with more real world problems.

The valley of ashes represents the hard or difficult parts in life. Also the parts of life that people may want to forget. It can be a place where people hide their secrets and inner feelings. For example, Tom's mistress lives in the middle of the valley of ashes. He hides her there, the bad part of his life. He has almost two separate lives, the fabulous perfect life and his dirty secret life. Myrtle states "It's really his wife that's keeping them apart, She's a Catholic, and they don't believe in divorce" (Fitzgerald 33). This shows Tom making up lies in order to keep his lives separate because he would never leave his trophy wife, Daisy, for his mistress, Myrtle. All throughout chapter two, it talks about Tom's hidden life which relates to the secrets and lies kept in the valley of ashes.

I agree that the valley of ashes may be a part of life that people want to forget about. It is described as such an awful place “where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke and, finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air” (22). People have to cross this poor valley when going into the city, but many people try to avoid it. They try to avoid seeing how anything that is not fabulous and exquisite.

In relation to what I posted about the Valley of Ashes, what you described could be almost part of what I said. Not only is it representing the difficult part of everyone's lives, it is also representing the real part. Although Tom has Myrtle, he would never leave Daisy because it could be inferred, she is apart of his dream that he has set up for himself. Also, if we look at Tom and Myrtle's relationship and the scene where she keeps saying "Daisy, Daisy, Daisy..." it is then when Tom hurts her. Readers can infer that he did that because he was being reminded of the the truth.

Fitzgerald's use of the imagery is great in the first paragraph of chapter 2. When he says that the ashes, " take the forms of houses.. of men who move dimly and crumbling through the powdery air," he is being literal in the sense that the air is so bad that there really is ash everywhere but figurative in the sense that the valley of ashes is a dark place. The land is grey and it isn't pleasant. Fitzgerald did a great job with the use of imagery to creat a dark place called the Valley of Ashes.

At the beginning of chapter two, Nick tells us about a piece of land lying "about half way between West Egg and New York" which is so desolate that it is a "valley of ashes — a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into the ridges and hills and grotesque gardens; where ashes take the forms of houses ... with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air." (Fitzgerald 23). The place that Nick describes is a wasteland where the inhabitants are overlooked because of the superiority of the two eggs.

I feel like the reason Fitzgerald puts the description of the valley of ashes in the book, not only to show the superiority of the two eggs, but to also show you how the world really looks. Looking at the two eggs, east and west egg, the descriptions we get about the two eggs are petty general, and all the descriptions are mainly visual details. I believe the valley ashes show how the world really looks like. All the ashes, dust clouds and what not, are used to show how obscured everyone's vision is towards society. That the real things that are happening in society everyone over looks and cannot see clearly, like how unclear it would be to look through a cloud.

the valley of ashes is shown to be a wasteland. while the area should be seen as beautiful, full of vegetation and fertile land due to the formation of the valley, the only thing that grows is "a fanatic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills..."these ashes destroy the possibility of plant growth, and are seen as a negative sight, adding to the symbolic element of lifelessness to the valley of ashes.

I agree with the idea that the bleakness of the valley of ashes adds to the symbolic element of lifelessness. However, in my opinion, the valley of ashes also has a lot to do with values represented in the characters. This is because of the ambiguity in the character’s actions. One example of this being Tom and Mrs. Wilson’s relationship. While they were in the apartment Catherine begins to tell Nick that the only reason Tom and Mrs. Wilson have not divorced their spouses is because Tom’s wife, Daisy, is a Catholic. But, actually, Nick acknowledges that “Daisy was not a Catholic, and [he] was a little shocked of the elaborateness to the lie” (Fitzgerald 29). This seems to strike up a great amount of confusion as to why the lie was made up in the beginning. This idea of confusion, or not being clear, is where I feel the connection is made between the valley of ashes’ unclear nature and the values and actions of the characters.

I agree with you, Tyler. I think the choice Fitzgerald made to introduce Tom's mistress here is because of all the negativity. The description of the valley makes the reader imagine how happiness has been sucked out of life becasue of people's poor decisions.

"[Ash- gray] men who move dimly", "powdery air", "line of gray cars", "invisible track", "ghastly creak", and "impenetrably cloud" are all characteristics of depression and uncertainty at the same time. The depression continues on down to Doctor T.J. Eckleburg "with no face-which pass over a non-existent nose". These symbols foreshadow the bitter events to come (assuming with Gatsby because the very next chapter discusses him). These symbols also suggest uncertainty in the sense that whatever bad is about to come, it will be unexpected. This tone carries throughout the chapter and comes back stronger in the last few sentences, "asleep in the cold lower level". Instead of analyzing the meaning for the valley of ashes passage for where it is placed in the book currently, I perceive it as a teaser for future events.

Fitzgerald first describes the Valley of Ashes as place “half way between the West Egg and New York” where the “motor road hastily joins the railroad and runs beside it for a quarter of a mile, so as to shrink away from a certain desolate area of land” (23). He describes the Valley of Ashes almost as a place of purgatory, a transition from light to dark, or from morality to corruption. Specifically, he says the Valley of Ashes is “a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens; where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke…” (23). This description has interesting contrasts, such as “fantastic farm” versus “grotesque gardens”, that shock the reader and set the stage for the likely destruction of key characters. Symbolically, the Valley of Ashes is also a dark, foreboding wasteland. Ashes that take the forms of houses suggest shadows of life and the smoke of destruction. Fitzgerald uses images of the Valley to reflect the state of society -- how it is constantly becoming more corrupt. For example, Fitzgerald’s description of “impenetrable cloud” is a foreboding image and may also reflect his view that the characters are essentially imprisoned by their lifestyle. Of the numerous images used in the description of the valley, perhaps the most significant landmark is the billboard of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg, whose eyes “brood on over the solemn dumping ground” (24). In my opinion, Fitzgerald uses a symbol for God, who is looking down on all of society and its corruption. For example, when Tom takes Nick with him to meet his mistress, Nick notices Eckleburg’s “persistent stare,” suggesting that he cannot escape God’s judgment. (24). In fact, Nick knows that it is wrong for Tom to be cheating on his wife, yet Tom still continues to do it, and continues to ignore the watchful eyes of Eckleburg, or symbolically the eyes of God and morality. Nick also references the Valley of Ashes when he follows Tom to meet Myrtle. He describes a single-yellow brick building that contained three shops: one was “for rent” and another was an all-night restaurant, approached by a “trail of ashes” (25). Fitzgerald is describing a poor area of the city, and is using the ashes to symbolize a path of corruption, a path that Tom has chosen along with many others. At the end of the chapter, Nick succumbs to corruption as he winds up drunk (for only the second time in his life) and finds himself “lying half asleep in the cold lower level of the Pennsylvania Station, staring at the morning Tribune, and waiting for the four o’ clock train” (38). As seen from the first chapter of the novel, Nick appears as a levelheaded person, however, even his descent into immorality is inevitable. All the characters seem to be connected by the Valley of Ashes, therefore, I expect the Valley of Ashes will be a reoccurring element throughout the novel.

In the second chapter, Fitzgerald's use of symbolism is seen most obviously in his description of the city as a dirty, polluted place. For example, "This is a valley of ashes-- a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens" (23). Comparing the city to a farm of growing wheat is discussing fertility. Symbolically, Fitzgerald is taking the idea of fertility and turning it to ashes. This sets up the rest of the chapter. Hope for a positive development in character is turned to ash as the characters, Buchanan, Daisy, etc., are all revealed to have very negative aspects to their existence.

The Valley of Ashes is all one big symbol for the departure of morality in society. Fitzgerald uses a billboard character as a symbol o a god by saying "But above the grey land and the spasms of bleak dust which drift endlessly over it, you perceive, after a moment, the eyes of Doctor T. J Eckleburg" (27). Eckleburg is just a man on a billboard, but this billboard is not even looked at anymore. Kind of like the moral rights of something like the Ten Commandments in this society. "Thou shall not sleep with the neighbor's spouse" should be very obvious to people, but instead you get people like Tom in this society who cheat and sleep around with women that he isn't married to. Everybody does this in The Valley of Ashes which is why the details provided for us makes it a unemployable place to think about for the reader.

I agree that the Valley of Ashes resembles lack of morality in society. It serves as a reminder that the world is moving farther away from what is right. The world is moving closer to acting on personal desires. I also think that the Valley can be seen as the unpleasant realities about life. These unpleasant realities will always come up (Myrtle's frustration with Tom) and are most likely not solved, just like how the Valley of Ashes remains dark.

For those of you who have ever read One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I find the ashes similar to the fog. It is used to hide someone from reality, even though it can be grimy or even frightening at times. (Think the dark garage with only the salvage ford in it). But it provides an escape, for it is where Tom's mistress resides. I find there is also a certain beauty to it. It reminds me of the old flats in the shadows of the abandoned factories in places like Cicero. Although it looks dark and desolate, Its almost beautiful. You know the insides are full of people and joy and laughter, even though the area looks as though it rained coal dust. The best parts are kept hidden beneath all of this ash, so that only people who know where to look can find what is hidden in it. This could be why Tim's mistress chooses to live here, so she can be hidden in a place most people wouldn't think to go. Its an escape from the pressures of society.

To further elaborate, I also believe that the depressing words like "powdery air" or "Line of gray cars" are not used to foreshadow, that they are simply used as symbolism for concealing bad stuff, as well as to describe how the area looks to the casual observer. If it were foreshadowing, I believe it would be used differently, for example, a group of mysterious people at the party in chapter 3.

Joe, I completely agree with you about how the ashes is very similar to the fog in a way that it is grimy and can be sinister, as well as does a good job of concealing the true nature of people. You make a very interesting point about how there can be beauty hidden under the ashes. I see it as the people of the society Nick is living in, especially the rich people, fail to let their true beauty show from under the ashes because they are pressured by society to act a certain way, therefore, they commit more and more sins, burying them deeper into the ashes and letting them true selves wither away under the ashes. I honestly had not considered that maybe Myrtle wants to live in the poorer part of town, but if she has an apartment somewhere else, it does make the reader question why Tom finds her at the garage instead. I agree that it could possibly be an escape from the pressures of society to her.

The opening of chapter two starts with Nick describing the Valley of Ashes as "a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat...[and] where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke" (Fitzgerald 23). It is described as being very hazy and almost disorienting. This would directly link to when Nick gets drunk for only the second time of his life later in the chapter and he ends up "lying half asleep in the cold lower level of the Pennsylvania Station, staring at the morning Tribune, and waiting for the four o'clock train" (38). Everything that happened before waking up in the station was a dense haze like the ashes described earlier.

Nick describes the valley of ashes as having, “… grotesque gardens; where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke, and finally… an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight” (Fitzgerald 23) this description from Nick is vivid and describes the town as being dirty, dark and veiled. This is symbolism for what happens here, Tom’s affair. It’s a dirty act that he commits, hiding his mistress behind the dingy clouds of ash. Nick’s description of the town carries through the rest of the chapter as we meet Tom’s lover and learn of her personality.

I also think that 'dirty acts' are committed in the setting of the valley of ashes. In my opinion, there will be more of these acts to come in the novel. The thought of being concealed by a, "impenetrable cloud" (Fitzgerald 23) is the perfect way to act as if no one will know what you are doing.

To me, If an not draw out much meaning in the description of the Valley of the Ashes. Yes, of course I know that everything is written for a reason and there must be a reason behind the vivid description of the Valley but I personally can only find real meaning in the description of T.J. Eckleburg' s eyes. To connect the description of the Valley to the rest of the chapter I could say that when it is described as "rising smoke and... men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (Fitzgerald 27), the image that comes to my mind is directness, which I can loosely connect to the rest of the chapter because the sneakiness and horrible actions of taken by Tom I the Valley can be called dirty and deceptive, so it fits.

Fitzgerald uses the valley of ash as a symbol in chapter 2. As it lies between the two eggs, all of the wealthy people must travel through it. I took it as the the regret and guilt people feel, and try and hide it away. Fitzgerald uses this opportunity to develop the character of Tom Buchanan, who "Mak[es] a short deft movement, Tom Buchanan broke her nose with his open hand". He assaults a women for bringing up his wife which fills him with guilt for cheating on her.

I think that the ashes in the valley represent the troubles in Nick and his new found company have. The ashes tend to take shapes into real-life objects, representing real life issues in people's lives, like Tom's affair and Daisy's unhappiness. Then, as "en swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight" (Fitzgerald 22), it foreshadows the drunken stupor Nick and Tom will eventually find themselves. For someone like Tom, it is a way to blow the ashes over the troubles , as if the haze of the drink makes it so he hardly sees the ashes of his life at all.

The description of the valley of ashes portrays the symbol of the Garden of Eden. "But above the gray land and the spasms of bleak dust which drift endlessly over it, you perceive, after a moment, the eyes of Doctor T.J Eckleburg" (Fitzgerald 23). These giant eyes are watching everyone just like God is. The description of the valley is very dark, dusty, and dirty. This created an image of how in God's eyes the world is turning to dust. With this, Tom Buchanan's mistress is introduced. The reader can connect his affair as breaking one of the Ten Commandments. This is the reason why the scene was set as dark and dirty from the beginning.

I thought it was extremely interesting that the billboard representing the watchful eyes of god or "Doctor Eckleburgs persistent stare"(26) was ever present in a chapter that talked of nothing but Toms unfaithfulness to his wife. I believe that Fitzgerald is making a religious reference to god being all seeing and the only one to recognize sin.

Fitzgerald begins Chapter 2 by describing a place halfway between West Egg and New York. A little town that is covered in dust and has a gloomy mood set into it. This town is watched by the gigantic eyes of Dr. Eckleberg, whose eyes "dimmed a little by many paintless days under sun and rain, brood on over the solemn dumping ground" (24). The eyes symbolize a higher power watching over the mysterious land that is home to Tom's mistress. These details coincide with how the rest of the chapter is put together and ends, because Nick tells it while he is drunk and disoriented, as if he was walking through the dusty town still.

I definitely agree with your connection of Nick's drunken haze described at the end of the chapter and the disorienting fog and ash that blanketed the city in the beginning of the chapter. However, the remark made about the eyes of Dr. Eckleburg and how they symbolize a higher power watching over the town does not make sense in my opinion. The people in the town, described as "men who move dimly" (Fitzgerald 23), do not seem to feel as if they are being watched by anyone. They just seem to go with the flow and ignore their surroundings, including the giant pair of eyes above the gloomy city.

Yes, Melissa, it does say that the men do feel that as if they are not being watched anymore, but that's where the eyes come in. The eyes are described as faded and worn, meaning that the whole "higher power" aspect as vanished from the lives of those in the valley. They have "forgotten about them" and "moved away" from this aspect (24).

Fitzgerald's word choice gives away a lot of the symbolism. He uses words like ghastly, bleak and ash-gray characterize the "valley of ashes". The description of the valley correlates to the people that live in it because both lack fullness. Fitzgerald also manages to foreshadow within the description of the valley: "...immediately the ash-gray men... stir up an impenetrable cloud, which seems to obscure their operations from your sight." (Fitzgerald 23). Like the cloud, Tom and Mrs. Wilson manage to hide their "operations" from their spouses. However, all clouds wither away or move, this could be Fitzgerald hinting at future problems. With his careful picking of words, readers are left puzzled and guessing what may happen next.

I like the word choice that you pulled out and I think it helps get Fitzgerald's point across to the readers. I also like how you brought up that the valley of ashes might foreshadow future problems to come between the characters. It makes the readers think and guess of what happened next.

The Valley of Ashes highly is a representation of the dark side of society. In between the two extravagant parties and wealth of the Eggs, a more realistic society exists. One of the working class, that resembles the pure image of ash. A society covered in dirt and that opposes the idea of where humanity should be heading. Instead of a bountiful land, society and its sins have burnt it to the ground, covering the world with an endless fog of ash. When Fitzgerald describes the valley of ashes, he states, “Occasionally a line of gray cars crawls along an invisible track, gives out a ghastly creak, and comes to rest, and immediately the ash-gray men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight” (Fitzgerald 23).

I agree with Yousuf, the valley of ashes represents a dark, run-down chunk of land that depicts what people have done to it. It resembles the sin that has created the valley of ashes and foreshadow what could become of the two eggs.

To me, the Valley of Ashes is simply a symbol for results. Knowing that ash comes from a fire, that would be why the Valley of Ashes is a place of result. Firstly, any place with the name such as this has to be have some sort of meaning to it that is deeper then surface value. The Valley of Ashes is the place where Mrs. Wilson and her husband live. When looking at this situation, one focuses on the affair and with prior knowledge, affairs usually end in a total disaster. The negative feel of this place can be found through Fitzgerald's words,"a fanatic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills." I took this quote to mean that with in the walls of the valley of ashes, there is destruction and disaster growing which is different than what is growing in the West and East Eggs.

I really liked how you looked at the details in the book more in depth than most others have and made that strong connection to the valley of ashes being a symbol for results as ash comes from fire. I just thought based on your response, that what if the valley of ashes was so described out in the intro to the chapter because Fitzgerald wanted to do some foreshadowing of what is to come out of the fire, or in this case, what is to come of the affair and the secret being upheld. I think it is very true that the valley is a symbol for results, because it leads the reader the believe that ruins and destruction is only to come out of the affair.

During the introduction of the chapter Fitzgerald creates this type of foggy perception of some of the things that will later happen. The valley of ashes is described as something that’s is blurry or unclear, with people that “move dimly… and stir up an impenetrable cloud”. Those words don’t only show that the valley of ashes is a wasteland, but one that has mysterious things happening. Fitzgerald describes Nick as getting drunk, but only for the second time in his entire life, which clouds things that happened and that leaves the reader with suspense as Nick wakes up in a train station the next morning. I think Fitzgerald did this because it hits to us as readers the perception that characters like Tom and Myrtle have. All the characters so far in the book have not been seen as pleasant people, well except Mr. Wilson but look at what is happening to him. The valley of ashes may symbolize the unfortunate situation of the poor, people like Mr. Wilson, who live among the dirty ashes and lose their vitality as a result.

I think you have a point, Caleb. I never thought of the fog as a connection to Nick being unable to recollect memories from his night out of town. I do agree with you though that the fog symbolizes that it is hard to distinguish the future and Nick had no clue that his friend would leave him drunk and stranded at a bus stop. I do also think that the fog foreshadows the rest of the book that there is a lot of confusion ahead and that the path for the characters is not as clear as we, the readers think.

Fitzgerald opens chapter 2 with a dark and discomforting tone. For example, Nick describes the Valley of Ashes using the phrases "desolate area of land", "ghastly creak", and "impenetrable cloud" to give an ominous feel about the Valley of Ashes. It gives the reader images that can only be seen as disturbing. The Valley of Ashes is a place that cannot be avoided. It resembles the harsh reality of what the world is coming to. However, it is overlooked and is separated from the rest of the area. This is relatable to Tom's relationship with Myrtle. Tom becomes frustrated with Myrtle when she tries to bring Tom's two worlds together by shouting, "Daisy! Daisy! Daisy!" (37) Tom is uncomfortable with facing his situation head on and acts out in rage. The Valley of Ashes is shunned because of people being uncomfortable facing the world they live in and the world that they have carelessly created.

I like how you focused on the word choice. Fitzgerald has a lot of hidden meanings and foreshadowing in them. The valley of ashes and its people seem to have something else hidden behind the "impenetrable cloud". We may find out what it is in the future.

The valley of ashes is a way to visualize the events that occur in the rest of the chapter following its description. "But above the gray land and the spasms of bleak dust which drift endlessly over it, you perceive..." is how its described (Fitzgerald 23). The book also mentions how Nick had gotten drunk with Tom one night, which was only Nick's second time getting drunk in his life. Typically when people drink, it's to have fun, and to cloud their minds tto try and forget about their troubles for a little bit. I think that's why the description is included, to demonstrate how nick carries this burden of knowing of Tom's affair again his cousin. The burden being the "gray land" and the dust that clouds over it is representing how Nick blocks out his feelings. It could also go along with the affair itself because the valley of ashes represents the secrecy of the affair and how it is unclear to the reader as to what will end up of it. The valley is the unperfect section of the society, just like how humans have their imperfections too. Therefore, with this imagery, one is able to understand the chapter more by comprehending the connection between the valley of ashes and the rest of the chapter.

I think the act of Nick getting drunk connects very well with the depiction of the valley of ashes earlier in the chapter.
Nick tries to ignore the fact that Tom is cheating on his cousin and is lying and abusive to his mistress by getting to drunk. This is very similar to how the rich from the West and East Eggs tend to ignore the troubles faced by the lower caste, poorer people that live near by in the "valley of ashes."

I believe that Fitzgerald successfully describes the valley as gloomy and desolate. He gives very specifically chosen word choice to allow for symbolism. He uses appropriate words for example ghastly and ash-gray characterize the valley of ashes. Fitzgerald creates a sense of foreshadowing within the text when describing the valley: "...immediately the ash-gray men... stir up an impenetrable cloud, which seems to obscure their operations from your sight." (Fitzgerald 23). I believe he uses the valley to represent how the ornate decorated West Egg, and New York City actually are very bad (literally) deep down.

I'm not so sure about this. I want to agree but wonder what you mean by deep down. Do you infer that the City itself is dirty and bad in a physical sense, or that the people can be characterized as despicable despite their status? I feel since the chapter describes a drunken, lust filled spree with Nick and Tom the second option seems like the type of city this section alludes to.

The description of the motor road is a very large part in the second chapter. It is all literal, the valley of ashes and the air is so thick that you are practically blind as you walk down these streets. Maybe the run down, gross area that she lives in is kind of symbolic to how Tom's mistress is like. She's a (for lack of better words) a cheater, and has an affair with Tom. It's a terrible situation, and how awful it is for them to be cheating makes me think of the condition of the town her and Wilson live in. Also, how this little party went. In my opinion, it just seamed awkward and uncomfortable. Once again, a poor situation involving Myrtle reflecting back on the poor conditions and town she is living in. Obviously the point is not that if you can't afford to live in a nice area, means you're not a nice person. I just think that the reflection of where Myrtle lives has a direct connection on her personality and the type of person she is.

Fitzgerald describes this city of ashes as a town that is filled with people who will live their life miserably. He describes the people as "ash-gray men (that) swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable cloud, which screens their obscure operations from your sight" (Fitzgerald 23). Later on in the chapter Nick narrates "the little dog... Looking with blind eyes through the smoke" (36). The fact that Fitzgerald uses this symbolic 'smoke' or 'cloud' to explain the area that Nick, Catherine, and the others are having a good time in could be foreshadowing what coul be.

Fitzgerald describes the valley of ashes very carefully in the novel as, "bounded on one side by a small foul river," (Fitzgerald 24). In my opinion, this setting in the story acts as a safe haven for multiple characters. For Tom, it is where his mistress lives and where he goes in secret. For Myrtle and her husband, the valley is their home for business. For Nick, the valley is where he seems to be taken by other characters constantly, but finds a simple peace in its presence. The only ironic aspect of the setting is that the billboard's blue eyes seem to represent the eyes of God, so in another sense, the valley of ashes is in fact a place where one is unable to hind.

I would have to disagree, I feel like everyone who does live in the Valley of Ashes whishes nothing more but to escape it. The characters that live there feel like they are trapped in the industrial wasteland; all they desire is to live glamorously, which may be a reason why Myrtle engages in the affair. It is a way for her to escape the pitiful life she lives for a few hours when she goes to the city with Tom.

I think I have to disagree as well. I feel as though this mountain of ashes and worn down town is not a spot of safe haven but rather a place of sin. That's where Myrtle lives and she is then other half of the adultery situation we see in the story. It's like a very dark, regretful, awful place in my eyes.

Nick describes a "waste land" between West Egg and New York City where the ashes from the city are dumped. The ashes cover everything, including the men who live there. Above this bleak "Valley of Ashes" stare out two huge spectacle covered eyes from a billboard for an eye doctor's defunct practice. These haunting, unblinking eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg watch over everything in the Valley of Ashes. I feel as if the walking into the Valley of Ashes is the entrance to sins and the people there are the ones left behind or the forgotten. This chapter explores a world that has collapsed into decadence, Fitzgerald's society is a society in decay. The only rationale that Myrtle gives for her affair with Tom is: "You can't live forever." Nick Carraway remains both "within and without" this world.

This description of the Valley of Ashes is meant to add to the sense of mystery that Fitzgerald writes with. I think that the ashes symbolize a cloudiness that covers certain aspects of the story. This passage sets a very hazy and mild tone for the rest of the chapter. I find it interesting how blunt some of the details in the rest of the chapter are. I think that those ideas contrast the "impenetrable cloud" that is described in the beginning. Later on in the chapter, Nick says, "It had occurred to me that this shadow of a garage must be a blind..." (Fitzgerald 25). The use of the ashes and the idea of blindness is continued through the chapter. Once again, it adds to the element of mystery and suspense.

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