 commu*ist spy Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: oregon Posts: 4,459 Mentioned: 17 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 653 Post(s) pillar 1420 vs sapim cx ray spoke fatigue? I'm contemplating a wheel build. pillar (taiwanese) is about half the price of sapim (swiss). same weight, appearance, material. it would appear to me that the only difference between these two spokes are 1. durability and 2. marketing. I've seen some say they're the same spoke, and I've seen some say cx ray is stronger. I did notice that the ones who say cx ray is stronger also happen to be the ones selling the spokes, so.... objectively, what is the actual difference between pillar 1420 and sapim cx ray? anyone seen enough broken spokes to know this? Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 25,419 Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones Mentioned: 138 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s) Quoted: 4959 Post(s) Quote: Originally Posted by spectastic I'm contemplating a wheel build. pillar (taiwanese) is about half the price of sapim (swiss). same weight, appearance, material. it would appear to me that the only difference between these two spokes are 1. durability and 2. marketing. I've seen some say they're the same spoke, and I've seen some say cx ray is stronger. I did notice that the ones who say cx ray is stronger also happen to be the ones selling the spokes, so.... objectively, what is the actual difference between pillar 1420 and sapim cx ray? anyone seen enough broken spokes to know this? First, Sapim is from Belgium. Similar neutrality ideas as Switzerland but they just happen to be flatter which makes them a convenient through way on the way from Germany to France That said, I have some experience with Pillar spokes but not that particular model. I've used the triple butted spokes from Pillar that are comparable to the actual Swiss company, DT Swiss. They are as strong and durable for slightly less money than their Swiss counter parts. I've used them because finding silver Alpine III here in the US is difficult. I can't speak to the Sapim spokes as I've not built anything with them but they seem to be as good as the DT Swiss spokes from what I have gathered. Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 3,474 Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed Mentioned: 3 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 123 Post(s) Likes: 0 Quote: Originally Posted by spectastic I'm contemplating a wheel build. pillar (taiwanese) is about half the price of sapim (swiss). same weight, appearance, material. it would appear to me that the only difference between these two spokes are 1. durability and 2. marketing. I've seen some say they're the same spoke, and I've seen some say cx ray is stronger. I did notice that the ones who say cx ray is stronger also happen to be the ones selling the spokes, so.... objectively, what is the actual difference between pillar 1420 and sapim cx ray? anyone seen enough broken spokes to know this? Gauge per gauge, spokes aren't compared on the basis of strength. They're compared on the basis of how long they can handle cyclical compression (tension / detension). That's controlled by 3 factors: 1. Grade of stainless steel. (DT Swiss uses the best - in house raw material production.) Want to test compare spokes in a MACRO fashion? 1. Bench vise. I've destroyed probably 1000+ spokes doing this since about 1989. About 10-20 on average each year. DT Swiss to this day still comes out on top. =8-) __________________ Disclaimer: 1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience. Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday LifeMad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 25,419 Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones Mentioned: 138 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s) Quoted: 4959 Post(s) Quote: Originally Posted by mrrabbit Want to test compare spokes in a MACRO fashion? 1. Bench vise. I've destroyed probably 1000+ spokes doing this since about 1989. About 10-20 on average each year. DT Swiss to this day still comes out on top. =8-) And what is this supposed to accomplish other than destroying the spokes? Does the higher quality spoke bend less? More? Can the spokes be bent back? Why would it even "destroy" a spoke since spokes are rather flexible? It would be helpful to tell us what we are supposed to be looking for. Quote: Originally Posted by mrrabbit 2. Amount of working and finishing during production. (Black finish spokes are very problematic - 10% to 50% reduction of life versus plain finish.) Say what? A citation please. The black finish on DT spokes is applied electrochemically like a chrome plating. That should have no effect on the strength of the spoke. Last edited by cyccommute; 05-08-19 at 08:22 AM. Banned
Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: NW,Oregon Coast Posts: 43,599 Bikes: 8 Mentioned: 197 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 7607 Post(s) Swiss also gain advantage because their banks hold money from all sides .. and a disadvantage ,
CHF is expensive , in exchange rate.. (all those bank deposits) so in one known case ,
commu*ist spy Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: oregon Posts: 4,459 Mentioned: 17 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 653 Post(s) Quote: Originally Posted by mrrabbit Gauge per gauge, spokes aren't compared on the basis of strength. They're compared on the basis of how long they can handle cyclical compression (tension / detension). That's controlled by 3 factors: 1. Grade of stainless steel. (DT Swiss uses the best - in house raw material production.) Want to test compare spokes in a MACRO fashion? 1. Bench vise. I've destroyed probably 1000+ spokes doing this since about 1989. About 10-20 on average each year. DT Swiss to this day still comes out on top. =8-) Quote: Originally Posted by cyccommute And what is this supposed to accomplish other than destroying the spokes? Does the higher quality spoke bend less? More? Can the spokes be bent back? Why would it even "destroy" a spoke since spokes are rather flexible? It would be helpful to tell us what we are supposed to be looking for. Say what? A citation please. The black finish on DT spokes is applied electrochemically like a chrome plating. That should have no effect on the strength of the spoke. i also don't see the reason to bent spokes like that. the ultimate indicator for spoke life span is its fatigue life, which can only really be accomplished by fatigue tests. Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 3,474 Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed Mentioned: 3 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 123 Post(s) Likes: 0 Quote: Originally Posted by spectastic i also don't see the reason to bent spokes like that. the ultimate indicator for spoke life span is its fatigue life, which can only really be accomplished by fatigue tests. It's a test of the onset of fatigue in a MACRO manner...exaggerated. In the real world sense, it's thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of cycles at the micro level where the spoke resides in the hubs and to a smaller extent at the nipple before the onset of fatigue. In the case of my DT Swiss 15g spokes on their fourth set of wheels - more likely 1,000,000 plus cycles. Haven't failed me yet...knock on wood. Nothing new or made up by me...it's a quick testing process that has been known decades before I even arrived on the wheel building scene. Don't like "wasting" spokes? Use a wire clothes hanger to experiment - if you can find some. =8-) __________________ Disclaimer: 1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my
experience. Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday LifeMad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 25,419 Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones Mentioned: 138 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s) Quoted: 4959 Post(s) Quote: Originally Posted by mrrabbit It's a test of the onset of fatigue in a MACRO manner...exaggerated. In the real world sense, it's thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of cycles at the micro level where the spoke resides in the hubs and to a smaller extent at the nipple before the onset of fatigue. In the case of my DT Swiss 15g spokes on their fourth set of wheels - more likely 1,000,000 plus cycles. Haven't failed me yet...knock on wood. Nothing new or made up by me...it's a quick testing process that has been known decades before I even arrived on the wheel building scene. Don't like "wasting" spokes? Use a wire clothes hanger to experiment - if you can find some. =8-) You still haven�t said what the point of the �test� is and what to expect. Even the most cheaply made spoke shouldn�t do anything more than just bend. I make a clip for my local co-op (useful for holding parts together) that is a circle with a 180 degree hook on the end at the threads. We make the hook on the end by bending the spoke around needle nose pliers. We use the oldest, nastiest spokes for the clips and seldom do the spokes break at the bend. The only time they break is if you happen to bend the threads instead of the spoke. So, again, what is to be expected from this �test�. Banned
Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: NW,Oregon Coast Posts: 43,599 Bikes: 8 Mentioned: 197 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s) Quoted: 7607 Post(s) get back to us in 2029, on your findings.. OP.. Thread Thread Starter Forum Last Post TiHabanero Bicycle Mechanics 58 08-12-19 05:53 PM spectastic Bicycle Mechanics 9 10-09-18 01:46 PM tcpasley Bicycle Mechanics 4 05-31-18 01:13 PM onespeedbiker Classic & Vintage 17 12-10-14 09:01 PM nazran Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) 3 07-25-11 04:54 PM You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off Are sapim CX Ray good?For any performance build, this is the spoke you want in your wheels and Sapim offers the best bladed spoke on the market, the CX-Ray spokes. The CX-Ray spokes still receives one of the best results in fatigue testing of any spoke.
Are sapim spokes good?Sapim spoke nipples are extremely corrosion-resistant, they are very strong so don't suffer any damage when building the wheel, and they are shaped so that they align well with the spoke – the head can rotate a little inside the rim preventing breakages.
Where are pillar spokes made?For over 30 years, Pillar has been a world leader in the development of spokes. With specialized production facilities in Taiwan closely linked to its own research and development facilities, Pillar is today the first choice for spokes and nipples from the most renowned manufacturers in the bicycle industry.
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Pillar aero x-tra 1420 vs sapim cx ray
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